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50 Responses to “L O S T: “The Substitute” Discussion Thread”
What I was just wondering is — if there are six final candidates, and they obviously knew who they were going in because their numbers correspond to the numbers on the hatch, etc. why bring all those other people to the island too? Or are they still in a time before the hatch was built and the numbers were discovered? I’ve kind of lost track what with all the time-jumping.
If anyone watches again. During the scene, where Lock is being interviewed by Rose, When she first enters the scene, behind Locke there is a picture of a couple just relaxing, and the man looks just like Desmond.
Prob has no real importance, just the writers F’ing with us, but someone else look and see if you agree..
Something else subtle that made me wonder.. For a while i have been trying to understand why the Other’s were so obsessed with dead bodies. but seeing Illana grab the ash out of the fire, makes me wonder if a certain kind of ash is necessary, and would prob be in short supply. (although hardly on this island, just crash another plane full of extra’s and guys like Neil).
I can’t help but think about Walts significance in this in relation to the young boy in the jungle w/ Locke. Perhaps there is zero. Remember how Walt would mysteriously pop up in the woods and revel himself? Jacob and the MIB are represented by Black and white it certainly seems. Maybe i’m stretching a bit. But i have to figure Walt will lay a major roll at some point.
but the boy may be the true God of the island, the one who put the rules of the game in place?
I think it’s more like he is another member of…whatever higher-level “tribe” – or pantheon – is playing the game one full level above the heads of the main characters. There is some larger game afoot, in which Jacob and Smokey X are merely the 2 active players we have seen, but they are constrained by larger rules in a larger context and the boy (who we first thought of as Aaron as well) is part of that context.
Interesting to hear Smokey X. McFakeLocke (damn, they need to give him a real name) say “don’t tell me what I can’t do” just like Locke always used to…but in the alt-iverse has learned the foolishness of…
the alt-iverse characters are definitely living out the “fulfilled” versions of their possible destinies…Alt-Kate successfully helped Claire end up on track to keep Aaron…Alt-Locke is learning acceptance and finding peace…Hurley is just L-I-V-I-N, as a great sage once said….really looking forward to his episode, obviously!
@Jibler:
I am the only one who noted that Locke, or Flocke, is trying to con a conman??
No, not at all. Great call, I’m totally with you on that.
overall, we just loved the episode, again. I liked the previous Kate one a lot better than some people, but this one was another level up, obviously. Kudos to @lycan for correctly forecasting based on past season patterns that this would be a Locke episode!
What I want to know is: when’s the Desmond ep? And hopefully a Faraday one! Though it’s possible Faraday won’t exist in the alt timeline, never having been born, which would present a classic time travel paradox (as discussed here before) since he was the prime mover behind events in the main timeline. However, I hope not; they have so far avoided the classic (meaning: incredibly cliched and played-out for sci fi fans) time travel “grandfather paradox” type plot points, which is a major achievement in a time travel story, and I will be a little disappointed and mildly annoyed if we end up in that territory.
faraday causing the alt timeline doesnt require him to be a part of that timeline because the alt timeline doesnt need him there to cause itself.
i think we will see that the alt timeline is connected to the original for this reason.
the alt timeline was created from another timeline rather than occuring naturally. This makes it far more relevant to the original timeline than the infinite other possible timelines.
my point is this:
as long as nothing changes in the events that led to the splitting of tie and the main timeline stays intact then the ATL should truely be free of any paradox.
of course this is Lost and there are obv bigger forces at work that reason and science so anything is possible
but on the other hand I also want to point out that it seems that the ATL characters fates are directly tied to the bigger game of the island.
things may seem nice and good for them now.. but because this whole existence comes from a timeline that is filled with pain, loss, sin, etc., their blithe existences or subtly tainted.
Something is going to happen to them that rattles their “happily ever after” selves. It seems like they have subconscious memories of their other lives and that this ATL is their final chance at redemption and to do things right, but either way they are going to still have to be tested.
I do see what you’re saying, and you’re probably right that that’s how they envision it.
In physics theory, since we’re talking about Lost and Faraday:
One theory – one I love for its poetic imagery, but is also a fairly plausible idea as I understand it – states that the collapse of a singularity (that is, the creation of a black hole) is, seen from the inside, actually a new big bang, creating a new universe “inside” the singularity.
So this could be seen as at least a metaphor for what is happening here. It is generally thought that information is destroyed as it crosses the black hole horizon; that is, that the conditions in universe A which create the singularity can have no impact on conditions “inside” the singularity. However, this theory states that at least the physics of the new “baby” universe B are derived from the “parent” universe A. Meaning, out of all possible universes, most of them will have wildly different physics than ours, different values for gravity and the other forces etc. In many or most of these universes, conditions won’t be right for the creation of many, or any, black holes; and so these represent “evolutionary dead ends.” But a universe like ours, which can create many black holes, and therefore have many “children,” each of which would in turn be more likely to “reproduce” – they would be more fit, in evolutionary terms, applied at a cosmological scale.
A further extension of this idea is that the physics vary a little in each of the progeny, being again more or less fit than the parent, which then truly drives “cosmic evolution.”
The overall point being that the “child” universe would be shaped by the parent universe but not causally connected to it post-creation – which fits with what you’re saying, lycan, I think.
The fun part, Lost-wise, is this: when we talk about “different physics,” what does that mean? How is one “physics” defined, in relation to another?
By the constants. The speed of light. The gravitational coupling constant. Proton-to-electon-mass ratio. The “fine structure” constant. The number of macroscopic physical dimensions (3). And a bunch of others…including…wait for it….
So in the alternate timeline it seems like the 815ers were not influenced by the island, Jacob, MIB etc.
Does this mean they haven’t been touched in the new timeline?
And something else.. We have been told for the last 5 seasons how IMPORTANT it is that the 815 crew was brought to the island. How IMPORTANT it is that Desmond was there to push the button. How IMPORTANT it is that the island be protected.
These missions of importance seem to have failed in the ALT timeline. So… while things seems to be going well for the ALT characters, my question is this:
Are we being set up? Is their future going to be the cataclysmic event the the powers that be were trying so hard to stop? Is their happiness going to cause the world to end? Do they have to make the sacrifices and go through the toils they went through in the first timeline to save the world?
I think we will see a huge disaster happen in the ALT timeline that will show us just how important it was for them to crash on the island.
we have seen the main focus of each season meet its end via fiery explosion.
Season 1: The Raft/The Hatch Door – Blown Up
Season 2: The Hatch and the Button – Imploded on itself
Season 3: The Others – 12 of em blown up
Season 4: The Freighter – Blown Up
Season 5: Dharmaville – Jugheaded
Season 6: The Alternate Reality – Blown Up?
hm. my initial response is that I think you are right about impending disaster but it could be personal to the characters rather than general to the world…will think about it though
What I was just wondering is — if there are six final candidates, and they obviously knew who they were going in because their numbers correspond to the numbers on the hatch, etc. why bring all those other people to the island too? Or are they still in a time before the hatch was built and the numbers were discovered? I’ve kind of lost track what with all the time-jumping.
@Lycan
“i don’t know about which LOST character adds up with which Phish member
but I can say that Radzinzky looks an awful lot like Page”
GREAT observation. This screams for a t-shirt.
If anyone watches again. During the scene, where Lock is being interviewed by Rose, When she first enters the scene, behind Locke there is a picture of a couple just relaxing, and the man looks just like Desmond.
Prob has no real importance, just the writers F’ing with us, but someone else look and see if you agree..
Something else subtle that made me wonder.. For a while i have been trying to understand why the Other’s were so obsessed with dead bodies. but seeing Illana grab the ash out of the fire, makes me wonder if a certain kind of ash is necessary, and would prob be in short supply. (although hardly on this island, just crash another plane full of extra’s and guys like Neil).
I can’t help but think about Walts significance in this in relation to the young boy in the jungle w/ Locke. Perhaps there is zero. Remember how Walt would mysteriously pop up in the woods and revel himself? Jacob and the MIB are represented by Black and white it certainly seems. Maybe i’m stretching a bit. But i have to figure Walt will lay a major roll at some point.
I think it’s more like he is another member of…whatever higher-level “tribe” – or pantheon – is playing the game one full level above the heads of the main characters. There is some larger game afoot, in which Jacob and Smokey X are merely the 2 active players we have seen, but they are constrained by larger rules in a larger context and the boy (who we first thought of as Aaron as well) is part of that context.
Interesting to hear Smokey X. McFakeLocke (damn, they need to give him a real name) say “don’t tell me what I can’t do” just like Locke always used to…but in the alt-iverse has learned the foolishness of…
the alt-iverse characters are definitely living out the “fulfilled” versions of their possible destinies…Alt-Kate successfully helped Claire end up on track to keep Aaron…Alt-Locke is learning acceptance and finding peace…Hurley is just L-I-V-I-N, as a great sage once said….really looking forward to his episode, obviously!
@Jibler:
No, not at all. Great call, I’m totally with you on that.
I think they might just kind of get sucked in – their bad luck to be on the same plane as the six?
I sure hope so!
overall, we just loved the episode, again. I liked the previous Kate one a lot better than some people, but this one was another level up, obviously. Kudos to @lycan for correctly forecasting based on past season patterns that this would be a Locke episode!
What I want to know is: when’s the Desmond ep? And hopefully a Faraday one! Though it’s possible Faraday won’t exist in the alt timeline, never having been born, which would present a classic time travel paradox (as discussed here before) since he was the prime mover behind events in the main timeline. However, I hope not; they have so far avoided the classic (meaning: incredibly cliched and played-out for sci fi fans) time travel “grandfather paradox” type plot points, which is a major achievement in a time travel story, and I will be a little disappointed and mildly annoyed if we end up in that territory.
@mr c
faraday not existing in ATL wouldnt really present a paradox any more than the other characters. I think this is why time split in two.
the original or main timeline must stay in tact no matter what so thats why nothing changed in it when they detonated the bomb.
instead of changing their histories, they created new parallel histories. therefore the ATL is free from any time travel paradox.
also:
Alt-Ben was fucking classic.
It depends on whether you have to consider the causality of the alt-timeline’s very existence, though
but honestly I’m totally happy with just not going there at all
time travel stories sketch me out ’cause they’re so hard to do without plot holes and so far they have escaped relatively unscathed
so we can just roll with that and I’m fine with it
but bottom line, I’m not convinced widmore is dead in the altiverse, so Faraday could well exist
even considering what caused the alt universe.
faraday causing the alt timeline doesnt require him to be a part of that timeline because the alt timeline doesnt need him there to cause itself.
i think we will see that the alt timeline is connected to the original for this reason.
the alt timeline was created from another timeline rather than occuring naturally. This makes it far more relevant to the original timeline than the infinite other possible timelines.
my point is this:
as long as nothing changes in the events that led to the splitting of tie and the main timeline stays intact then the ATL should truely be free of any paradox.
of course this is Lost and there are obv bigger forces at work that reason and science so anything is possible
my brain hurts
but on the other hand I also want to point out that it seems that the ATL characters fates are directly tied to the bigger game of the island.
things may seem nice and good for them now.. but because this whole existence comes from a timeline that is filled with pain, loss, sin, etc., their blithe existences or subtly tainted.
Something is going to happen to them that rattles their “happily ever after” selves. It seems like they have subconscious memories of their other lives and that this ATL is their final chance at redemption and to do things right, but either way they are going to still have to be tested.
or = are ^
I do see what you’re saying, and you’re probably right that that’s how they envision it.
In physics theory, since we’re talking about Lost and Faraday:
One theory – one I love for its poetic imagery, but is also a fairly plausible idea as I understand it – states that the collapse of a singularity (that is, the creation of a black hole) is, seen from the inside, actually a new big bang, creating a new universe “inside” the singularity.
So this could be seen as at least a metaphor for what is happening here. It is generally thought that information is destroyed as it crosses the black hole horizon; that is, that the conditions in universe A which create the singularity can have no impact on conditions “inside” the singularity. However, this theory states that at least the physics of the new “baby” universe B are derived from the “parent” universe A. Meaning, out of all possible universes, most of them will have wildly different physics than ours, different values for gravity and the other forces etc. In many or most of these universes, conditions won’t be right for the creation of many, or any, black holes; and so these represent “evolutionary dead ends.” But a universe like ours, which can create many black holes, and therefore have many “children,” each of which would in turn be more likely to “reproduce” – they would be more fit, in evolutionary terms, applied at a cosmological scale.
A further extension of this idea is that the physics vary a little in each of the progeny, being again more or less fit than the parent, which then truly drives “cosmic evolution.”
The overall point being that the “child” universe would be shaped by the parent universe but not causally connected to it post-creation – which fits with what you’re saying, lycan, I think.
The fun part, Lost-wise, is this: when we talk about “different physics,” what does that mean? How is one “physics” defined, in relation to another?
By the constants. The speed of light. The gravitational coupling constant. Proton-to-electon-mass ratio. The “fine structure” constant. The number of macroscopic physical dimensions (3). And a bunch of others…including…wait for it….
wait for it…
the Faraday constant.
Love this show.
@Mr. C
you have eloquated what I was trying to say in a much more coherent way.
this is exactly what I think is happening.
Faraday may be the key to getting the true candidate to the island in the spirtual condition that they need be in to take over.
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/final_season_of_lost_promises_to
All in good fun…nerds.
Something else probably not important i noticed in my third viewing.
Helen’s shirt.. Simply reads…
Peace & Kharma
seems innocent enough, but i feel this is another huge hint about the sides of this game. White vs. Black is not automatically good vs. evil.
Jacob represents Peace (foregiveness, patience, acceptance, freewill)
Smokey/Flocke represent Kharma (eye for eye, accountability, you get what you deserve)
Also on second inspection (on a real HD tv) it is def Desmond in that picture at the temp agency, just weird
hey great stuff there @sniggle
another interesting observation is how “Jacob-like” Hurley was….benevolent and helpful
why the hate for the article? it’s not insightful, but it’s not really wrong about anything either, that I could see
haha wrong thread
I wanna put something out there.
So in the alternate timeline it seems like the 815ers were not influenced by the island, Jacob, MIB etc.
Does this mean they haven’t been touched in the new timeline?
And something else.. We have been told for the last 5 seasons how IMPORTANT it is that the 815 crew was brought to the island. How IMPORTANT it is that Desmond was there to push the button. How IMPORTANT it is that the island be protected.
These missions of importance seem to have failed in the ALT timeline. So… while things seems to be going well for the ALT characters, my question is this:
Are we being set up? Is their future going to be the cataclysmic event the the powers that be were trying so hard to stop? Is their happiness going to cause the world to end? Do they have to make the sacrifices and go through the toils they went through in the first timeline to save the world?
I think we will see a huge disaster happen in the ALT timeline that will show us just how important it was for them to crash on the island.
and to add to my previous post:
we have seen the main focus of each season meet its end via fiery explosion.
Season 1: The Raft/The Hatch Door – Blown Up
Season 2: The Hatch and the Button – Imploded on itself
Season 3: The Others – 12 of em blown up
Season 4: The Freighter – Blown Up
Season 5: Dharmaville – Jugheaded
Season 6: The Alternate Reality – Blown Up?
hm. my initial response is that I think you are right about impending disaster but it could be personal to the characters rather than general to the world…will think about it though
what a great episode of LOST tonight!
Jack is the man.